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> Fire Emblem Fix a Unit: Lyre
SilverKnight
 Posted: Dec 8 2015, 08:55 AM
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We (I) return after a long hiatus with FE Fix a unit: Lyre Edition!

So in here I list off all of Lyre's stats, growths, supports, availability... Her as a unit. I'll give a basic analysis of her stats to start discussion, and the goal here is to "fix" Lyre to be a passable unit compared to other units. When performing my analysis, I'm going to perform it solely on stats until the discussion starts to form a basic structure for the unit; availability and comparison to other units will be left to you guys, so expect many pieces of this to be missing. Discussions are no fun when the whole goal is solved in the first post!

So... Here are her stats and growths!

Level: 17

HP: 47 (50%)
STR: 7 -> 14 (35%)
MAG: 6 -> 12 (10%)
SKL: 11 -> 22 (65%)
SPD: 11-> 22 (70%)
LCK: 16 (50%)
DEF: 7 -> 14 (20%)
RES: 8 -> 16 (35%)

HP: HP is okay, though the growth is low and the base is okay for a Laguz. (Breaking my own rules lol, I can't compare this to anything but the other units).

STR: Also very low, and one of her worst stats. Lyre's strength would prevent her from doing any meaningful damage, and in order for her to do damage you would have to level her, and her growth isn't high to begin with.

MAG: Also very low, and coupled with a lower growth. This is to be expected from a physical unit, although when transformed it creates an unusually high magic stat for her low growths, though this doesn't create much additional offense since it's still too low to really utilize a Reaper Card.

SKL: Her highest stat tied with Speed and barring HP, this and speed are the only particularly spectacular growths on Lyre. She's really good at hitting.

SPD: Her highest stat tied with Skill and her highest growth. She's very fast, and can guarantee doubling against most units. She'll never do any damage with it, though.

LCK: Not particularly high, and also not too shabby. She's got a good growth in it, but it doesn't do much. It's also unaffected by Laguz transformation bonus.

DEF: Also bad, and she's got a bad growth for it too. If Lyre takes a hit, it will do a lot of damage.

RES: Echo defense.

LET THE DISCUSSION BEGIN. FIX THIS ATROCIOUS UNIT!

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"I don't know. The laguz tribes cannot interbreed, I know that much. However, it seems possible, though rare, for a child to be born to beorc and laguz parents. But once the bloodlines have mingled, the trace of it can remain hidden for countless generations. Have I violated the goddess's laws? Have my parents? No. Whatever happened was done by some forgotten ancestor. My parents are beorc, as were their parents before them. I do not know who is responsible for what I am. But now, after many generations, their sin has appeared in me. I bear no guilt, but the badge of impurity is mine to wear." -Stefan

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Shamison
 Posted: Dec 8 2015, 10:23 AM
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QUOTE (SilverKnight @ Dec 8 2015, 06:55 AM)

DEF: Also bad, and she's got a bad growth for it too. If Lethe takes a hit, it will do a lot of damage.


Did you mean Lyre?

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Stef'ren
 Posted: Dec 8 2015, 11:12 AM
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Hm, how would I fix her..
-
Probably with just simple touch-ups.
Level- 17->15
HP- 47 -> 46
Spd- 11-> 10, 70% -> 65%
Def- 7-> 8, 20% -> 30%
+ Innate Adept
-
My goal here is to give her better tradeoffs for low strength withou invalidating her sister entirely.
Adept and some minor stat shifting accomplishes this.
Her strength is actually fine for a cat in RD. Ranulf is an outlier, and Lethe only has 2 base (ignoring possible bonuses), so 4 damage, over her with a 4 (6 with change) level gap to fix that over about 8 chapters. If she procs it twice, she's equal or better than her sister

The biggest problem Lyre has is that she can't even into boss-killing with her strength and no S rank, so she's stuck killing normies for her levels until she procs it, gets a ring, or gets S. Preferably all of the above, so she does better than low chip.

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 Posted: Dec 8 2015, 11:57 AM
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Okay here is how I would fix Lyre.

First off, before I do anything lets just compare her to Lethe; which is another cat unit you get earlier in the game. However ignoring this lets just pretend you get them both at the same time.

Base stat comparison

Again, here is Lyre
Level: 17

HP: 47 (50%)
STR: 7 -> 14 (35%)
MAG: 6 -> 12 (10%)
SKL: 11 -> 22 (65%)
SPD: 11-> 22 (70%)
LCK: 16 (50%)
DEF: 7 -> 14 (20%)
RES: 8 -> 16 (35%)

And now here is Lethe
lv21
HP:51 (85%)
Str9-->18 (35%)
Mag 6->12 (5%)
Skl 13-->26 (30%)
Spd 12-->24 (50%)
lck 18 (45%)
def 9-->18 (35%)
res 10-->20 (20%)

So let's compare; Starting wise I would say Lethe has a clear advantage over Lyre. I mean Lethe is a higher level; but not only that but Lethe has higher starting stats for *every* stat except for Magic; which is honestly the most irrelevant one for these units.

But let's pretend you decide to level up Lyre until she is the same level as Lethe, you want a level to level comparison. The immediate problem with this is the waste of efficiency, I mean Lethe starts at a higher level so unless Lyre is *EXTREMELY* amazing after a few level ups, there is no reason to level up Lyre because it just becomes a waste of exp. But regardless let's level up Lyre to level 21 and see what her stats look like now.

Lyre lv 21 Lethe lv 21(base stats)
HP 49 Hp 51
Str 8.4 Str9
Mag6.4 Mag6
Skl13.6 Skl13
Spd 13.8 Spd12
Lck18 Lck18
Def7.8 Def9
Res9.2 Res10

Wow, this is truly sad. Honestly the only thing that Lyre has beaten Lyre in is skill (barely, I mean by .6) And Spd; which is only somewhat relevant because Lethe maxes spd on average after leveling her up anyway. For everything else Lethe either ties or beats Lyre. And to me this makes it meaningless to waste exp on Lyre because even at the same level she is out classed by her older sister in most areas and Lethe isn't even that great of a unit herself; although she is still far more usuable than Lyre.

So here is what I propose; We're not trying to break Lyre we're only trying to make her usable. And you know what? I think I know just how to do that. Lethe is the older sister, so naturally from a flavor perspective it makes since for Lethe to at least *start* stronger; so I don't think any changes should be made to Lyre's base stats. Instead I think the changes should be made to Lyre's growths so that she appeals more to a more casual run, but has *potential* even in an efficient run.

So here is what she would look like after my proposed changes (the bases are the same, just felt like posting them again)

HP: 47 (60%)
STR: 7 -> 14 (45%)
MAG: 6 -> 12 (10%)
SKL: 11 -> 22 (65%)
SPD: 11-> 22 (70%)
LCK: 16 (50%)
DEF: 7 -> 14 (30%)
RES: 8 -> 16 (40%)

a 10% increase to str, def and hp and res. This will turn her more into an Est archetype for the Cat tribe. She will still start awful and probably doesn't have a future in hard mode. But now if you're playing easy or normal mode and decide to level her up, it doesn't feel like a waste of time.

Now using these new growths lets compare her to her sister at level 21
HP 49.4 Hp 51
Str 8.8 Str9
Mag6.4 Mag6
Skl13.6 Skl13
Spd 13.8 Spd12
Lck18 Lck18
Def8.2 Def9
Res9.6 Res10

So now as you can see Lethe is still beating her sister; but it is by such a small amount now that they are mostly identical. Lethe will always beat Lyre in defense on average, but beyond level 21 Lyre will surpass her sister in pretty much all stats. If you manage to get Lyre to max level (which is hard to do unless you're playing Easy mind you) She will max most of her stats most of the time. Although even with higher stats being a cat laguz means her transformations won't last long; and due to not being a royal she can't stay in her form.


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SilverKnight
 Posted: Dec 8 2015, 12:37 PM
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QUOTE (Shamison @ Dec 8 2015, 04:23 PM)
QUOTE (SilverKnight @ Dec 8 2015, 06:55 AM)

DEF: Also bad, and she's got a bad growth for it too. If Lethe takes a hit, it will do a lot of damage.


Did you mean Lyre?


#Notactuallycontributingtothediscussion

Please refrain from doing this in the future when pertaining to this thread. I'd like to keep it relevant to the topic, so if you want to do this, please include something pertinent to the debate.

So the problem I see with Lyre is she fits into what we could statistically call an Est unit. However, some of her growths don't reflect this. Compare her to any Myrmidon or her sister, and her Strength growth is still the lowest by 5%.

QUOTE (Eise @ Dec 8 2015, 05:12 PM)
Hm, how would I fix her..
-
Probably with just simple touch-ups.
Level- 17->15
HP- 47 -> 46
Spd- 11-> 10, 70% -> 65%
Def- 7-> 8, 20% -> 30%
+ Innate Adept
-


I agree we should edge her out as an effective speed unit... But the issue is combined with her trash-tier Strength, she probably couldn't effectively deal with anything that isn't a Mage by the time she appears. Accounting for availability, she appears in what could be the Laguz equivalent to Rolf. Rolf also needs to be babied, but we get a good Marksman out of him if we were to train him, right? Lyre doesn't become good with being babied.

The issue with the Adept is that she would still never be able to effectively utilize it with the same Strength, so I suggest these changes instead:

Level- 17-> 15
HP- 47-> 46
Str- 35% -> 40%
Spd- 11-> 11, 70% ->65%
Def- 7 -> 8, 20% -> 25%

So in this case, we sacrifice Adept for a higher starting Strength and slightly less defense. This places her tied with Mia for lowest Strength, but still higher than the initial growth. Speed gets cut because it was high anyway, and here if you give Lyre experience, she can obtain Rend at level 30, and deal effective damage there.

Comparing her to Lethe at this point causes Lyre to win out in Strength, Speed, Skill, and Luck. Lethe wins in HP, Defense, and Resistance.

--------------------
"I don't know. The laguz tribes cannot interbreed, I know that much. However, it seems possible, though rare, for a child to be born to beorc and laguz parents. But once the bloodlines have mingled, the trace of it can remain hidden for countless generations. Have I violated the goddess's laws? Have my parents? No. Whatever happened was done by some forgotten ancestor. My parents are beorc, as were their parents before them. I do not know who is responsible for what I am. But now, after many generations, their sin has appeared in me. I bear no guilt, but the badge of impurity is mine to wear." -Stefan

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 Posted: Dec 8 2015, 10:24 PM
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I see you didn't reply to my recommendations.

I am curious what you thought about my idea.

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Kawaii Seoul
 Posted: Dec 8 2015, 10:35 PM
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I think laguz mechanics need to be completely revamped.

Like instead of transformation doubling stats, it should be 1.5x, and higher laguz base stats.

Among other things. That first.

After that, increase Lyre's availability (obviously) to maybe have her show up in part 2, since at the moment Lethe has more availability while having higher bases. Then, give her unique factors that her sister won't have, like say cancel or vantage.

Lastly, give us some R18+ gfx of our kawaii lil nekogirl for using her and making her hit level 40 through the tower. This is the only way to actually save Lyre.

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SilverKnight
 Posted: Dec 8 2015, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE (Breloominati @ Dec 9 2015, 04:24 AM)
I see you didn't reply to my recommendations.

I am curious what you thought about my idea.


I more specifically had thoughts on Adept when I was commenting, I'll comment on yours once I can formulate a good response for it. Honestly Lyre is such a crappy unit and could be balanced in a few ways, each fitting a different role.

--------------------
"I don't know. The laguz tribes cannot interbreed, I know that much. However, it seems possible, though rare, for a child to be born to beorc and laguz parents. But once the bloodlines have mingled, the trace of it can remain hidden for countless generations. Have I violated the goddess's laws? Have my parents? No. Whatever happened was done by some forgotten ancestor. My parents are beorc, as were their parents before them. I do not know who is responsible for what I am. But now, after many generations, their sin has appeared in me. I bear no guilt, but the badge of impurity is mine to wear." -Stefan

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SilverKnight
 Posted: Dec 11 2015, 12:31 PM
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You guys actually suck. Post in these more.

New thread is going up soon!

This time it's Fix a Unit: Radiant Dawn edition!

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"I don't know. The laguz tribes cannot interbreed, I know that much. However, it seems possible, though rare, for a child to be born to beorc and laguz parents. But once the bloodlines have mingled, the trace of it can remain hidden for countless generations. Have I violated the goddess's laws? Have my parents? No. Whatever happened was done by some forgotten ancestor. My parents are beorc, as were their parents before them. I do not know who is responsible for what I am. But now, after many generations, their sin has appeared in me. I bear no guilt, but the badge of impurity is mine to wear." -Stefan

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 Posted: Dec 11 2015, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (SilverKnight @ Dec 11 2015, 01:31 PM)
You guys actually suck. Post in these more.

New thread is going up soon!

This time it's Fix a Unit: Radiant Dawn edition!


I wasn't posting because you never responded to my thing meanie http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa168/Dinfima/Site%20Stuff/RCRY.gif

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